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today i received a big box from Isicar in Japan....
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...ps33ysylqe.jpg
a BIG box!!!!
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...pszu5gxpcf.jpg
unpacked to get all this....
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psypttzx8v.jpg
with the help of Kaz, posts on here, posts on prime and scouring the internet i have most of the bits for an ABS conversion....
i say 'conversion' as i'm currently going the s2000 abs module route...
to that end i have this...
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3dxru6cq.jpg
i realise that the programming will be a different balance to the proper 2002+ NSX unit, but my reasoning is that my brakes and wheel sizes are different from the 2002+ car, and even the 1997+ cars had a braking system that was modified to move the brake bias to the rear, so my '92 car is different anyway, having early brakes and big wheels! my ABS useage is for the panic breaking stability side of things, i don't drive it in a manner that needs ABS cadence braking assistance where critical slip angles for optimum cornering ability at the limits is required... it's my daily driver and an auto after all!!! :)
as you may notice there is an excess of abs pumps... i'm not mad, it was just a slight error!
the first pump i bought was just the pump, for a whole £30, as the plan was to buy the conversion loom and go from there. then after more research, looking at many conversion loom pics, wiring diagrams, etc, i decided not to let my education go to waste and make my own.
soooo... i purchased another S2000 ABS pump, this time with a plug pigtail, £28!
now, as you probably have heard in various posts, there are TCS issues using the S2000 abs pump as the S2000 doesn't use the system the same way, but the pins are present on the pump....
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psx7cgug62.jpg
and as Kaz mentioned in his blog, a quick check on a unit he was configuring for one of his clients showed that a signal was present on the one channel he tested. i shall be checking the other channels on the bench just to make sure, if not i have a plan B just in case!
of course, as the S2000 doesn't use these pins on the ABS pump, there are no connections in the plug. so i have to source another plug. this pushes me towards the after market harness again, so i found another ABS pump, this time from and HRV, with the correct plug pigtail! yet another pump is a pain, but at £14 delivered, it's ok, maybe a little extravagant when it works out to be £14 for just the 4 connectors i want!!! oh well!!
after a bit of fiddling, working out what locking mechanisms are in place, making tools, the extra 4 wires are in the S2000 ABS plug....
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psejoez3lc.jpg
you may notice in the first pic is a bag of solid state relays for the ABS warning light circuit (though i have seen wiring looms with conventional automotive relays) and a bag of connectors for the ABS computer end of the loom... so pretty much there apart from some wire to join the dots..... the loom pics i've seen typically use a couple of multicore cables for the signal wires so straight forward, though i might use some twisted pair cable for the ABS sender signal connections, just to reduce noise as it's on a longer wire run....
... and i may of accidentally polished the motor cover, don't know how that happened!
You are one brave engineer Jon, attempting that mod with those parts. 👏
Good luck anyway mate, :)
:goesandgrabspopcorn:
I'll just strap myself in here for the show! ;)
Good luck Jon...look forward to seeing the first steampunk NSX...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pride
all the hardware, apart from the pump, is OEM for the 2002+ NSX, the pump is the same physical unit and has the same pinout (subject to confirming TCS outputs) except one wire ('WALP' a diagnostic wire) which can move should i get hold of an OEM pump.... and the loom is just joining the dots from the old loom connector at the ABS computer and the new pump.
got to run wires between the 2 for the 4 pairs of wires from the abs sensors at the wheels ( where i'll use the twisted pair wires) then there's a pair of fat power leads (40A plus), 4 tcs wires, alb light via a relay, scs diagnosis wire, and ignition feed, a brake light feed and a couple of fat earth leads to the chassis....
one source was this thread on prime... http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showth...ABS-conversion but he didn't investigate the TCS side of things....
...thinking about it, i might as well bin the WALP connection, even with the NSX abs unit i won't have the rest of the connection for a diagnostic port! (so 16 data wires to connect, 8 of which will be in a twisted pair cable....) :)
from Kaz's post http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/entry.php?157...Refresh-etc-01 here's the type of thing....
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-S...0/DSC_0034.jpg
as you can see the white connectors haven't actually got many wire connections!
just for reference as they are already hosted on this site..... (and saves me googling if i lose the printouts...)
S2000 ABS connector pinout....
http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/attachment.ph...0&d=1354880877
and the 2002+ NSX ABS connector....
http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/attachment.ph...9&d=1354880862
just to be awkward the diagrams drawn the other way around!
the S2000 ABS unit has all the required pins, just got to confirm the 4 extra ones have the TCS outputs on them...
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psx7cgug62.jpg
wires purchased...
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psfr2cuijl.jpg
18 wires available for signals!! for the 4 ABS signal wires it was cheaper to buy a twisted pair audio cable to chop up, than have to buy a 30M reel and use 1/10th of it!!!! and the majority of the twisted pair cables were single strand.. ok for a permanent setup, but in a vibrating car would be bad news!
ABS pump fits in the cradle
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...pslolikkpj.jpg
whoever says you can use a S2000 cradle just by removing the extra tripod mount bit is, how shall i put it... exaggerating :)
i've also got some small connectors en-route, i've seen looms with a mi-point join, with small connectors, allowing a smaller connector block to go through the firewall gland. i'll see how big the are in reality then decide if i'm going to do that!
This project that you're attempting Jonathan is just crazy.
Didnt someone once say that the first sign of a genius is lunacy, if so then I think you must be a right loon.:)
crazy??? its nothing that hasn't been done before......and by members of this very forum ...... :)
Posted the same info on nsxprime but some of the visitors here may not see it so I'll just cut and paste it.
You already have my parts list for this modification so I'm glad you went for the NSX specific bracket and not modifying the AP1 one.
I'm also very interested in your feedback regarding the w/speed signal output for the TCS as I only managed to test one corner at very low speed by just spinning the wheel by hand.
Here goes the cut and paste.
Glad this is not your build thread as I prefer that thread in your style leaving the detail by referring to another thread outside of the 'Build' one;
Based on what I saw on other ABS modulators, NA2 NSX-R (no TCS from the factory) and the brief test carried out for another owner using AP1 ABS, unless AP1 ABS software is disabling the w/speed signal output above certain car speed, TCS should work and no TCS light.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rG...=w1080-h608-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6f...=w1080-h608-no
I only checked one corner at very low speed but the w/speed signal output was available from AP1 modulator
There are several owners who installed the NA2 NSX-R ABS on their standard NSX and so far, no TCS light being triggered.
As you know, NSX-R didn't have TCS from the factory but the 4 x w/speed signal for the TCS seemed to be enabled on the ABS modulator.
However, most of the above owners had their TCS disabled in the past and thus, no more TCS light even the IG key in P2 so their feedback could be not 100% correct.
By now, I was hoping one UK owner to have already installed the AP1 ABS modulator with the modified T3TEC loom for AP1 usage on his NSX but it won’t happen until later this winter so looking forward to the feedback from britlude in the future.
For the clarification, T3TEC loom is not cheap so won't be cost saving, I have no interest in selling the loom and I have no intention to interfering this nice project by Syndicate.
As mentioned in my previous post, it doesn’t have to be AP1 but you can use any modulators as long as you know the required spec and what you are doing.
Some extra information for those interested.
If you are happy to spend about US$50, I recommend the use of NSX specific holder bracket for the modulator than modifying the bracket that may come with the non-NSX modulator.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Xh...=w1080-h608-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/NV...=w1080-h608-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/R4...=w1080-h608-no
Both modulators in the above photo are of AP1. Just the bracket difference.
Left one with the NSX specific holder bracket and the Right one with the AP1 bracket.
Even with the reduced weight compared to the classic ABS, it’s still fairly heavy and you really want secure fixing for the modulator considering the inertia under sudden impact.
The use of proper bracket will also allow the use of proper NSX brake pipes without bending them and in the future, if you decide switching to NSX modulator, it will be a quick swap.
Obviously, the point of this thread is cost saving so please make your own decision.
Please select the appropriate relay for driving the ABS warning light circuit if using AP1 modulator.
The I/F on AP1 modulator only draws tiny current so you will need the high switching sensitivity type and since it will be continuously ON unless the modulator detects ABS failure, you must select the contact spec suitable for this kind of application.
This is probably due to S2000 using the digital gauge assy that the designers wanted to minimise the noise introduction by the use of ordinary mechanical relay that requires higher coil current and generates noise when switching On and Off.
Personally, I would stay with the SSR mentioned in the original post based on its characteristic under cabin temperature that could reach well over 60degC under direct sun light and the target circuit design that is different based on the year models.
For your reference, depending on the year model, the ABS warning light circuit is different and thus, the power consumption is different.
There is additional mechanical power relay in the loop on the later model so the logic is revered and while the updated post of using the Omron relay is nice and another cost saving, not sure of the long term usage under high cabin temperature with continuously On status.
By the way, you don’t compare ABS on dry, straight line.
As others mentioned, under that kind of condition, the main factor is the friction coefficient and thus, your tyre/road surface and load on each tyre play the biggest part.
You probably had better tyre than your friend and I don't know the spec of your brake but probably with the earlier smaller OEM brake caliper (brake balance massively towards the front) with aftermarket wheel or different rake between F and R rideheight compared to OEM.
You may find that under certain speed and condition, continuously fully locking the tyre will stop at shorter distance than letting the ABS to do the work.
Next time if you have the opportunity, please try these.
Ideally on the controlled wet proving ground, layout the traffic cones with mid-large radius (R) corner that you are comfortable to enter at about 50mph.
Approach the corner with steering wheel straight at 50mph, brake hard and almost immediately at the same time, turn the wheel to trace the corner R.
Measure the total stopping distance as well as the gap between the car and the nearest traffic cone.
Next, do exactly the same but on this occasion, turn the steering wheel first on entering the corner before immediately braking hard.
In ideal world, both tests should show similar result but you may find very interesting and quite big difference especially on some of the modern production cars with stability control equipped.
On our NSX, fortunately or unfortunately, there is no interaction between the ABS and TCS in the form of stability control.
The result difference between NSX and non-NSX ABS modulator would be very interesting.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dE...=w1080-h608-no
You must have access to the SCS terminal on the ABS modulator from outside without disconnecting the big BLK/ORG connector.
Otherwise, you will have big time resetting the error code.
You never know what kind of error code already stored in the used ABS modulator and you can’t erase it by removing the fuse or disconnecting the battery.
You must follow the specific procedure and timing involving the IG key, Brake pedal and the SCS terminal in order to reset it.
Further info here including the comment section;
http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/entry.php?1791-Meanwhile
Kaz
Right, i have a computer working again, after a windows update toasted my hard drive (do a backup soon after you read this, and not just to another folder on the hard-drive, something external (and your emails if they don't stay on the email server!)
when i say toasted, i mean to the point that this, or any other comp, doesn't even recognise it as a hard drive!!!!
i shall continue!
with the aid of wiring diagrams and pin outs (fortunately printed before the comp crash) i worked out what was what with the S2000 pigtail.... and made it a bit more user friendly for testing...
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psew0btdy6.jpg
meaning i could now access all the connections easily and mock up bits like the ignition connection, brake light and the dash light.
the ABS light can be a bit tricky, but once you've got your head around the reverse logic AND switching 0v, rather than the conventional 12v it gets easier. you have to think of it as the ABS computer is switching the dash lamp OFF, rather than energising it.
in the first instance, the dash lamp was simulated with an 3k resistor between +v and the led/abs light connection and an LED to 0v, the abs effectively shorting out the led when it's 'active', turning it off. the abs protected with the 3k resistor. this is ok for testing ,but no good to go into the car to drive the actual dash light, so i bought one of these.... a whole £2.25
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...pslvs4tv4z.jpg
this gives me a relay that puts no load on the ABS unit, is optically isolated to make sure nothing untoward happens and has LEDs on it to tell me what's happening. with a switched high, or low input and a change over relay output, i'm sorted for all eventualities!
with the setup connected to a bench power supply, i connected the abs units, my test unit first (test because it's the dirtiest!) i was concerned i'd done something horribly wrong as the abs led stayed on. double checked, and tried again with the SCS terminal earthed.... after 2 second the relay board led (pretending to be the dash light) went off, and a fault code sequence began, one long, 2 sho....hang on, look at this
(the red LED is on the relay board on the right!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejxq77LrSHE
(with the error code being displayed, i know the abs computer is working as it's doing what it is asked!)
that's error code 12 (one long, 2 short) which is intermittent/bad abs sensor signal, and error 61 (6 long, one short) which is a low voltage error
using the reset procedure that Kaz kindly included in his 'abs upgrade support' thread http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/showthread.ph...pgrade-Support (and it saved me trying to find and download the S2000 service manual again!) i reset the test ABS unit... and now when i power up i get the expected 'ABS light on for 2 seconds' result
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqCS9yKM5Wk
the second ABS unit, although the ABS light was going off after 2 seconds has error codes 13 and 61 i shall reset these once in the car
i was going to start the wiring loom, but came across a slight problem......
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...pscucymmqq.jpg
the 4 twisted pair patch leads i bought weren't quite that.... lacking some wires i fear! a quick moan and refund, off to source the right stuff!!!
next step is to check the TCS outputs are there, so to that end i purchaced a 2001-2006 civic abs sensor
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psrchazksp.jpg
(i didn't have an NSX one here, and it was £11 delivered rather than the £100 for the NSX equivalent! if i bought an NSX one, you KNOW it wouldn't be the one that next fails!)
they are basically a wire wrapped around a magnet, so once i've checked the resistance is in the right area for the NSX system, i'll use it to give me a signal when put it near a cogged wheel in my lathe...
Where was I…..
3 ABS pumps, 2 connectors, a load of OEM pipes and bracket, a bunch of wire and some connectors!
Made up a test strip board, and testing can begin….
Set up the civic abs sensor on the lather with a random steel gear,
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...pssqv8pm8a.jpg
and made sure it was working…..
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7rzftgk6.jpg
We have a nice wave on the ‘scope! (That’s what the disconnected abs sensor gives out when it’s near the spinning cog of the abs bit on the axles!)
Unfortunately I couldn’t see anything on the pulse outputs (sad face) I tried with the second abs pump, and that was the same.
Now, both my pumps are ….. ‘006-V95-139B’ ..... you can just make it out...http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psegw8k83q.jpg
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psua5e0aoa.jpg
and careful study of Kaz’s S2000 ABS thread, showed that unit to be a ‘-139A’… is this a different software revision with tps tweaks???? Only one way to find out… order yet another S2000 ABS unit! Fortunately they are stupidly cheap!!!!
So I now have a ‘-139A’ version…..
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4el7ckla.jpg
Alas still no signal, I must be doing something wrong….. Turns out I was.
According to the manual, the TPS output is 0v-5v square wave, referenced to zero, so probing the scope across zero and the o/p pin showed nothing. I set the test rig up with a battery, just in case there were some ground loop effect with the bench power supply and the scope… no, then set it up on the car just to make sure the abs sensor was giving slightly differing outputs, again no…
Put in a pull up resistor on the probe, I now see a nice square wave output on the tps output! Hurrah… Once again, lucky they are cheap!
I hate IC logic that sinks current rather than sourcing it sometimes!!!!
HOWEVER…. I only see an output on the FRONT ABS signal lines. Now I have the pull up resistor, I see that FLP and FRP are pulled low by the ABS computer, but RLP and RRP are floating. So my aim of fitting the S2000 ABS unit and still getting a functioning TCS is dead in the water…
Now I know many don’t like the original/classic/clunky TCS, but as I use my car all year, including rain ice and snow, the TCS does come in handy, although harsh, it does help, so looks like the not cheap NSX ABS pump is on the cards… at least I’ve spread the component purchase price!
On a more positive note, I got new cabling for the conversion loom, and began making up the lead…. Gave up on sourcing 8 way multicore in the right size, too large, or too small were all that’s available, unless I want to buy 100m of the stuff!!!
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...pszjj40opy.jpg
Then noticing the reference pic I’d had printed out was the ONLY upgrade loom with the lead exiting the same side as the orange plunger!
A quick revision…..
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psodrqttls.jpg
Oh well, off to spend some money…..
You are having a laugh Johnathan, surely!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by britlude
it looks more like something out of back to future than a winters project, this posting is very interesting, I love it.👏👏👏
right a bit more digging on the s2000 ABS pumps.... as I've ordered a proper bona-fide NSX ABS pump, i thought i'd investigate the S2000 ABS pump a little further, find out just what's going on... so i popped the tops off!
Look like this inside….
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psftdvgwzz.jpg
the first -139B ....
spot the 4 pads near the end, the ones without the little link wire... guess what pins they got to.....
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psiujjkvkc.jpg
Yes, that's the connection to the 4 TPS outputs at the plug socket, so that'll explain why there's no signals there, apart from some noise!
Another angle
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...pscotrnhp0.jpg
the -139A
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psxzltzzvz.jpg
again there's the 4 bare pads for the TPS outputs
this is the second -139B
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psqvsxlwq3.jpg
hmmm... this one has only 2 pads not connected, the front TPS outputs are interconnected between the connector pins and PCB, so the front FLP and FRP are there..... all three circuit boards look the same, with the same components missing (empty placement pads) on all 3 boards
now, i shall have an experiment, to see if adding the other 2 links gives me a RRP and RLP outputs to the connector, HOWEVER, this will just be for experiment!!!
this is just for curiosity... I'm NOT going to put a hacked/'jerry-rigged' ABS system in my car, I've no idea how it might affect the ABS circuit function!
another thought... it would be interesting to pop the top off the AP2 S2000 ABS to see if it has the same circuit-board as the AP2 S2000 has TPS....
Surely it would be wiser to just buy a new one or would that blow your budget??? (and inventiveness):)
Hi, Jonathan,
Interesting finding.
On other model ABS, there are knows soldering cracks causing ABS warning light but Nissin ABS seems to be fine.
Could you check the white bar code label on the black lid that you removed?
I don’t know the ABS unit I tested on my NSX was 139A or B but I know the one I saw FR w/speed pulse had bar code with 57105 S2A J50.
The 139A one with the tripod that I didn’t test had bar code ending 951.
Interesting to see if you can get all four w/speed pulses on AP1 ABS.
Kaz
-Z03 already on its way!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pride
well... just to end this little S2000 ABS modulator adventure, i soldered in the missing links on all 3 ABS units.... and there was no change! the unit with the FLP and FRP signals was the only one to have any output pulses, but still on just the FLP and FRP pins. no other pins gained signals!
the -139B, no TPS signals
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...pst2cpgqlc.jpg
the -139A no TPS signals
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...pscmljdbp0.jpg
and the -139B that has just the FTP and FRP signals, but nothing relating to the rear wheels
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psfky7mz0i.jpg
confirming the 57105 S2A J50 has the front TPS outputs, but not a lot of use without the corresponding rear ines!
Hi, Johnathan.
Not sure how you connected the mock-up w/speed sensor but when you have a chance, could you do the following?
Connect the sensor to the rear side before powering up the system.
Set SCS input at low level before powering up the system.
Power up and perform error code clearing sequence using brake pedal inputs.
Confirm error code cleared by fast blink of ABS light twice.
Power off, remove SCS, power up and see what happens to the rear side signal first.
Just hoping the software is disabling the rear signal if it detected any error although very unlikely if thinking in logical way.
Kaz
i've set it up with dummy 1k ohm loads to simulate the abs sensors, and jump in the abs feed where appropriate....
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psqrciskhy.jpg
after going through the reset procedure, i tried each channel in turn, alas i only got an output signal on the FLP and FRP as before :(
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2q73awqn.jpg
if i removed any of the loads with the unit switched on, the computer detects the abs sensor has gone open circuit and switches on the ABS light accordingly!
Thank you for spending your precious time, Jonathan. You're a star!
So, for some reason, the engineers decided to disable just the Rear side signals through software or hardware then…
Normally, in order to save the cost and to prevent creating multiple software versions, one would use software map or hardware jumper or pull up resistor so select the specific feature using the same base circuit board design with single software version….
Nice analogue oscilloscope from Iwatsu. You can find used one very cheap these days but still, in the era of digital storage, keeping analogue one become handy in several occasions.
That oscillo is known to crack the internal capacitors and ICs but if you can source the parts, fairly easy DIY repair being as analogue.
Kaz
well.. my christmas prezzie to myself arrived this morning....
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psnrqecirz.jpg
and out of the box....
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...pswlmoku5j.jpg
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8brwjw9o.jpg
and
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psswpovsxc.jpg
its sooo purdee, expensive, but purdee!!!!
and i found one of these on the 'bay..... a rare beast indeed!
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...ps93g4qosc.jpg
must sort a better pic!
In your opinion John do you think this is a better/more efficient filter than the newer replacement model??Quote:
Originally Posted by britlude
By the way, Merry Xmas :)
i saw it and thought i'd get it! in theory it's better as it'll have a greater filtration surface area, but as i do oil changes about every 6000 miles, it's not that much of an issue...
the advantage of the new shorter filters is they are easier to change without making too much mess as there's more room to maneuver them old filter! !!
re-arranged the pinout of the ABS connector from S2000 to NSX configuration, and gave the unit a power up.... the 'ABS light' on the relay board extinguished after 2 seconds as expected, so all good! :)
back to the ABS conversion prep... took out the glove box , located the abs computer and checked the connectors i have will fit the plugs and i bought the right ones... i did, so all good there!
a couple of pics so i can clarify colour codes and positions of the wires!
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psmfh2hf4e.jpg
http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/...psvssghmmj.jpg
i bought a gallon on brake fluid too, so good to go!
(not just for the NSX, it'll be used for a fuid flush on the Jensen and long suffering Cube!!!
I hope you're not colour blind John.🤓
A quick addition to this thread, as I neglected to say where I got the sockets for the abs plugs and someone asked me on PM...
They are TE Connectivity, MULTILOCK 070 Female Connector Housing, 3.5mm Pitch, 20 Way, 2 Row
Available from RS..... 18 way and 20 way (hopefully!)
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/wire-...-plugs/3629216
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/wire-...-plugs/3629222
And pins here...
https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/sear...lock+070+crimp
(search : 'multilock 070 crimp' if that link doesn't play!! You'll want the male pin type....
Quote:
Originally Posted by britlude
I would like to thank you.
Like you, I had problems with digital technique (raised on linear technique). I managed to find the missing signals. To the extent that today I can find them in other ABS Honda modulators from this period.
I also have a problem with the nature of responsibility - I don't want to become a hacker.
I will open a new thread and post a few photos from work.
Post scriptum: I also had a problem with ABS light - thank you once.
(unfortunately I do not know English - using the translator)
Mario