PDA

View Full Version : Advice please - potential clutch / flywheel issue



stefaneinz
29-02-2012, 08:59 PM
I would greatly appreciate some advice. My 2004, 11,000 mile NSX is in for a regular service with a Honda dealer. I asked them to look at a small issue I had noticed, which is as follows:

- When shifting up a gear at between 3,000 and 3,500 rpm, the engine seems to hold onto the revs for a second or two. So, to be precise, I dip the clutch, shift gear, but the revs stay where they were for a second or two, or until I lift the clutch when of course the revs are forced to fall
- This happens in any gear and only in this approximate rev range. So when shifting at lower or higher revs I don't notice this.

I thought this may be a characteristic of the engine mapping, although it does not seem quite right.

I had not noticed any other issues with the clutch or gearshift. I bought the car with 8,000 miles on the clock about 15 months ago, and bar this one issue it has been fine. I rev match and avoid slipping the clutch when pulling away from rest.

In any event, the dealer called me today and said that two engineers had road tested the car and identified that the clutch was, in fact, slipping. He could not tell me under what conditions, so I plan to call back tomorrow and ask to speak to the engineer(s). I find this hard to believe because I have never noticed this and I drive the car, shall we say, enthusiastically using all the throttle and revs when able and safe to do so.

Given this and the issue I have described, they are proposing to remove the gearbox and inspect the clutch and flywheel. They state this is 15 hours labour and will cost £1,000. If no issue is found, I am left with the bill no matter what (they say). To replace the clutch and flywheel (if that is what is required) will be a bill of nearly £4,000.

Now, of course, I don't know how the car was driven for its first 8,000 miles, but it seems to me that a clutch / flywheel issue at such a low mileage is very surprising.

In any event, I'd appreciate any thoughts on:

a) whether the initial problem I had identified could be anything else
b) alternatives to using this dealer for the investigative (and if required) replacement work - the cost seems exorbitant.

(The only reason I am using a Honda main dealer - who does have a good reputation apparently for NSXs - is that I still have a Honda Happiness warranty.)

Thanks in advance

Cheers

Papalazarou
29-02-2012, 09:13 PM
Although not impossible, it's pretty unlikely the clutch is slipping. They all hold onto revs in the manner you describe. I've had four NSXs and they all did/do it.
The quoted cost of the clutch is also laughable; unless your cars been drag raced every weekend the flywheel should perfectly ok. However, in some countries, America being one, I believe, they do suggest fitting a flywheel at the same time.
Regardless, in the unlikely event a clutch is needed, I would get one from the states or ask on the forum to see whether anyone has one for sale.
I would also ask Kaz. He's really the final word on anything NSX technical. Finally, and just my opinion, it is not crucial to have a clutch fitted by a Honda dealer. A good independent should be able to do that job properly and a lot cheaper.

Cheers,

James.

stefaneinz
29-02-2012, 09:18 PM
Thanks James. That is very helpful to know that the characteristic I described is a characteristic of the cars - a sample of four is good evidence :)

I've decided I will visit the dealer on Friday and ask them to demonstrate the clutch slip to me. I just can't believe they have got that right.

Cheers

NSXGB
29-02-2012, 09:27 PM
To try to simulate clutch slip, put it in say 4th gear while doing 30-40mph and floor the throttle.
£2700 of what they quoted is for the flywheel which is contentious as to whether it's required each clutch change.
I had a gearbox swapped by Norton Way Honda for around £400 so £1k seems too much.
HTH

havoc
29-02-2012, 10:27 PM
Agree with the above - clutch replacement book time is a little over 5 hrs, so if they're also removing and inspecting the flywheel expect 6-7hrs of labour...which even in the London area should be only £600-700. If you're a regular customer I'd expect some discount on this as they're doing an inspection and it's big money.

Clutch slip? Again I agree - surely you'd have noticed that, not the engineers. Plus the engine holding revs with the clutch disengaged is most definitely NOT clutch-slip!

Kaz-kzukNA1
29-02-2012, 10:44 PM
.................
In any event, I'd appreciate any thoughts on:

a) whether the initial problem I had identified could be anything else
b) alternatives to using this dealer for the investigative (and if required) replacement work - the cost seems exorbitant.

.............
For a), it is very likely to be the typical phenomenon of latest DBW+LEV behaviour.
Mentioned in the Forum several times.
One example here;
http://www.nsxcb.co.uk/showthread.php?7648-revs-not-dropping-3000-rpm


For b), Honda service system will show the labour as about 5.1Hr for CL service.
You can do the simple check based on NSXGB’s procedure.
You can’t judge the condition of CL based on the mileage but in UK, I’ll be surprised if it is already slipping at 11K miles.
In Japan, I used to replace the CL every 30K – 35K miles whereas in UK, my existing CL already covered more than 100K miles.

As two engineers confirmed, it is possible that your CL is indeed slipping but also you may have other issues such as CL master cyl push rod being tampered in the past although it is very unlikely for your low mileage.

Not sure where you are based but you may want to take your NSX to Norton Way Honda for a third opinion.

Kaz

stefaneinz
29-02-2012, 10:47 PM
Kaz

Thanks, really appreciate the advice. The car is at Norton Way Honda.

They have not mentioned the rev holding phenomenon; their first thought is a flywheel issue.

Where are you based? Could I drop the car in to you for an assessment?

Cheers

WhyOne?
01-03-2012, 07:33 AM
Just in case any more evidence is needed (which I doubt!!) I have a 2001 NA2 car which is of course DBW. It exhibits exactly the rev-holding behaviour which you describe.

Good luck with the diagnosis / fix, if indeed anything is actually wrong!

stefaneinz
01-03-2012, 09:50 AM
I have had a further discussion with the garage this morning and they have backtracked somewhat. They are now saying that the engineer felt only a very slight clutch slip and they do not recommend removing the gearbox to inspect. I remain suspicious that they felt anything at all.

They have also now confirmed the issue with the revs holding at 3-3.5k - just as stated above by others.

Quite why they could not get this right first time is beyond me, but I am grateful to avoid what would have been a large bill - and probably for nothing.

Cheers

WhyOne?
01-03-2012, 10:29 AM
I have had a further discussion with the garage this morning and they have backtracked somewhat. They are now saying that the engineer felt only a very slight clutch slip and they do not recommend removing the gearbox to inspect. I remain suspicious that they felt anything at all.

They have also now confirmed the issue with the revs holding at 3-3.5k - just as stated above by others.

Quite why they could not get this right first time is beyond me, but I am grateful to avoid what would have been a large bill - and probably for nothing.

Cheers

'Interesting' that they have back-tracked on this.

I just wonder what would have happened if you had not questioned their initial recommendations? Presumably a ~£1000 bill at the very least.

NSXGB
01-03-2012, 05:39 PM
Bit disappointed with Norton Way lately. Hmmm.