NSX after driving a new car

[reg]

Having had a loan car for a few days (Civic) jumping back into the NSX was a bit odd. Actually 'jumping into' was more like trying to find the seat as where my ass thought it should be there was only fresh air! The height of the car is so much lower, then the view over the dog ear pop up lights and the smell of leather, not that weird new car smell that seems never to wash out of clothes. All good things.

Now for some bad. The brakes just plain crap, no doubt new discs etc are coming my way. The stereo after the Civic was only 'ok' and I missed the controls on the steering wheel. Instrument lighting is good and thank God I was free of the mind altering blue neon display and huge MPH indicator that's like having a Police speed gun reading beamed into your head :shock: Lighting on auxiliary controls is pretty cack really but after a while you settle back into the 90's.

So what next?

The steering. On the Civic I thought it was broken. No feel, none, just turn it and it gripped, and gripped well. But there was little difference whether on a rough surface or smooth. The NSX might not be the last word in sophistication on that front but without a diff to manage the power to the front wheels and lots of torque numbing devices some proper feedback is evident. It’s generally a landslide from here. Apart from ventilation technology which has also advanced somewhat in a decade and a bit.

The engine in any modern car is isolated from the driver, it is there because the instruments tell you so. The NSX feels like a car in a more basic design form. Towns for example. Yes you can potter through them but the car is not quite happy about it, it’s a 'feeling' I get? Shifting around the box with 1500-2000 RPM is notchy, visibility is poor and the initial brake bite is harsh at low speed. All these things contribute to a car having appeal (to me). Its a mechanical device, not a washing machine on auto, you can feel the engine and hear the valve train, you don't need instruments to tell you where the clutch is biting the torque tells you.....you are involved in the process.

Anyway enough rambling. I am glad to get it back and realize more than ever why it was the right choice in the first place :cool:

[WhyOne?]

Good, interesting, post Reg!

Whilst the NSX is my daily driver, I switch too and from my wife's Stream on a regular basis. I agree with your comments about the NSX being perfectly drivable in town, but not being 100% happy about it. It is difficult to put your finger on - it doesn't get 'grumpy' - the temps are fine, the engine's fine....everything is fine.....you are just aware that the engine is bolted quite close behind you and there is some vibration in the 1000-2000rpm band.

I think the steering feel is the most dramatic (low speed) difference beteen the NSX and most newer cars. Whilst the NSX does not provide Lotus/Noble levels of feedback, it certainly makes you far more aware of the road surface than most cars (including the S2000).

Having said all that, the NSX is a very compliant, tollerant beast. During last summer I made the mistake of using the M25 one especially hot day - temps into the mid / high 30's in the shade (I hate to think what they were where Y1 and I were sat, in the sun, on a large black expanse of tarmac) and hit stationary traffic. I spent over an hour stationary / crawling along and the NSX regulated it's temperature perfectly and didn't complain for a moment.

[Steveycaz]

One thing you certainly get in a 1991 manual is steering feedback - and plenty of it. The move to PAS for all models was surely a move away from being a 'driver's car' as reported at the time by several car journalists. Because it isn't my daily drive, I can forgive the stiffness of the steering whilst parking :) !

[rkanaga]

Very interesting post guys. Can I add my 10p's worth as well?

I come at this from a slightly different angle having for the past 5 years driven a Peugeot 406 V6 coupe, and my wife's Volvo V70 diesel! But before that I drove a Renault GTA turbo and various hot hatchbacks. Oh and I have had a Caterham for the past 10 years as well. This is where I think that the NSX fits in....

Yes the displays are a bit crap in anything more than low light. And the brakes are a bit fierce at first (nearly went through the windscreen the first time I used them in anger!) I quite likethe retro switch gear (which is well made in any case I think).

But as you rightly say it's the feeling of being connected to the road that really sets this car apart. Going from Caterham is a pretty hard test of any car for feedback, but I think that the NSX communicates with the driver amazingly well, while at the same time feeling much more grown up than the Caterham. Sure a 7 will be miles faster down a country road (as would a motobike I imagine) but the NSX manages to be virtually as good whilst also being refined and more able at higher speeds.

For me the NSX combines the steering feel of my old GTA (no PAS, rear engined a bit like an old school 911) without the impending sense of wallet pain as bits fall off! And the drivability of a 7 without the need for a woolly hat and thermal underwear for 10 months of the year! Like Steve I am happy to put up with the heavy low speed steering in return for feedback, but it isn't my daily drive either.

I haven't driven a modern Ferrari or 911 yet (still a bit out of my financial league!) but they would have to be damn good to better what Honda achieved with the NSX (I mean in the sense of the overall package, not just performance. If you just want to go fast, and there are so many constraints on doing so these days on the open road, then you are probably better off in a Noble or such like)

All IMHO needless to say!

[DamianW]

One thing you certainly get in a 1991 manual is steering feedback - and plenty of it. The move to PAS for all models was surely a move away from being a 'driver's car' as reported at the time by several car journalists. Because it isn't my daily drive, I can forgive the stiffness of the steering whilst parking :) !

the PAS is electro mechanical and disengages above a certain speed, at which point both cars feel (supposedly) the same. I've not driven an early car so wouldn't know.

Its horses for courses, and I would argue the better brakes, engine and gearbox of the later car more than make up for some mythical loss of feel when you're doing 10mph.

[Steveycaz]

the PAS is electro mechanical and disengages above a certain speed,
I didn't know that! Do you know at what speed it disengages?

[DamianW]

I didn't know that! Do you know at what speed it disengages?

I couldn't remember, I think it might be 50mph, which admittedly means you have to be doing a reasonable lick before you're getting the old-school steering feel.

I find the steering fine on my car, yes round town its pretty light, but once you start doing *cough* mph its fine ;)

[WhyOne?]

Do you know at what speed it disengages?

Something over 80mph before there is zero assistance IIRC.

[DamianW]

Oh well, just read some facts here:
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Technical/eps.htm

and I'm wronger than a wrong thing with a degree in wrongness. Different rack altogether, with variable rate on PAS cars...

[Nick Graves]

It's probably an unfair comparison, because the Civic's designed for a totally different market. One that has an anaesthetic addiction, presumably.

A comparison with say a 996/7 or an S2000 would be fairer, because their controls are set up to be a lot more positive & feedback generally better.

I have to say that the NSX is a lot more exciting at normal/vaguely insane speeds, whereas a C4 is too like a normal, modern car. The NSX shares that with the S2000, only it's far more refined.

It's partly the weight/safety-PC-brigade thing, partly because cars are now tuned for people who learned to drive on an Xbox/dunno how to drive.

LJKS predicted that car design probably would be considered to have reached a zenith in the 90s, with hindsight, because of that. I think he was right.

The NSX's stalks are like those of the Citroen CX; far too modern for modern cars!

It also has that endearing steering column vibration at idle; the three-pot engine in your back wobbles it ever so slightly when the engine is first started, like a MK1 Golf. There's a palpable lightness to the car.

It has that feel in common with the Civic VTi & the Prelude; a real driver's car feeling.

The previous CTR was starting to lose that & I am afraid the latest may feel far too ordinary.

[Greybloke]

My wife has one of the new type 2.2 diesel civic's which I sometimes drive, so feel well place to respond to the original post.

As Nick points out unfair to compare the cars as they are from different time zones, and targeting very different groups. However I take the point about how far the engineering has progressed (brakes, ventilation etc) My daily car is the NSX and I'm very happy to drive in town with no power steering (you get used to it) and love the feedback once on the "open road" The civic has zero feedback, but there again I dont expect many target group owners appreciate what feedback is, and why its a joy to receive it:p

Anyway not really seeking to defend either car here, by default I always drive the NSX (for obvious reasons:cool:) but if I need the practicalities of a 5 seat car the Civic is a blast. The diesel is so punchy in the mid range, I'm almost a diesel convert. This and the standard gizmos which always entertain me, persuade me to forgive the Civic's appauling rear visibility, and harsh ride. Oh I quite like the blue dash and info centre, and steering wheel controls.

[AR]

Its horses for courses, and I would argue the better brakes, engine and gearbox of the later car more than make up for some mythical loss of feel when you're doing 10mph.

I would say that if you take a standard 3.0 coupe, non PAS, get some good brake fluid, pads and Stainless Steel lines. Get headers and an less restrictive exhaust. Get short gears and R&P. Get the NSX-R or similar suspension. You will end up with a faster, more responsive and perhaps cheaper car.

But as you said is horses for courses. My gripe with the normal 3.2s are the PAS, passenger airbag that pretty much deletes the console, OBD II, the extra weight needed for the targa. Those things can't be changed without spending a fortune.

Cheers,

AR

[AR]

With regards to other cars, my wife and I both have 100 series Amazons, with me having a manual one and I love the way the AWD works. It is a monster, but it can more than embarass a few on the rounabouts! My wife's auto is not as satisfying.

Cheers,

AR

[WhyOne?]

........OBD II......

Excuse my ignorance, but what is OBD II (I thought it was a engine management error reporting protocol!) and why is it's inclusion to the detriment of 3.2???

[AR]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is OBD II (I thought it was a engine management error reporting protocol!) and why is it's inclusion to the detriment of 3.2???

The OBD II restricts the amount of tuning you can do to the engine.

Cheers,

AR

[DamianW]

I would say that if you take a standard 3.0 coupe, non PAS, get some good brake fluid, pads and Stainless Steel lines. Get headers and an less restrictive exhaust. Get short gears and R&P. Get the NSX-R or similar suspension. You will end up with a faster, more responsive and perhaps cheaper car.


Cheaper? Doubt it, particularly when you take resale into account. Not sure how many of us on here, when looking to buy ours NSXs, looked with any seriousness at spammed up examples. I know I wouldn't, I only wanted an original car. So you're decimating the potential buyers and therefore your resale.

Obviously whether that worries you or not is a different matter. It does worry me, I like having a "toy" in my garage to play with but at the same time I like to limit the number of fivers I'm throwing onto the fire.

[reg]

Interesting points above.

When I was looking I didn't realize that there were any mods out there, sort of assumed that the car would be good enough in the first place if you know what I mean? I would have avoided (probably) modified examples. Now though I would view certain things in a different light. Either way I think the best thing to do if you are selling an NSX would be to remove non std pipes and intakes as you would get more for them on the forum and then sell the car as std.

[Papalazarou]

I think when it comes to modding, you need to be honest about the driving you do. For me buying NSXR suspension would be the kiss of death, the roads where I live are too lively and some areas badly surfaced. If I lived somewhere where there were lots of smooth roads or if I did track sessions every month I'd probably stiffen the car up a bit.

Reg, I think you're right when you say to remove after market items before sale; there's a much better chance of getting better money for those parts separately.

I had a ride in a GTR33 Skyline running 500-700hp, it cost the guy uder 20K but had over 40K's worth of mods. That was a lot of car for the money, but I'd have hated to be the guy who had the car modded in the first place!

Furthmore, there's a guy on Prime with a turbo NSX who's sunk $100,000 into his car. Guys on that particular thread predicted 10-15% back for what he'd spend. Yikes!!

On a brighter note; if you buy good quality useful/desireable parts people will always want them and if you buy a factory car with those parts already fitted you should always retain good residuals.


Cheers,


James.