What have you driven and how does it compare to the nsx?

[jamieburke]

Hi all

i really like how my nsx drives, how it appears to have that almost indefineable 'something' that makes it truly feel magical to drive, even in comparasin to other, more modern cars.

im referring to the driving experience as a whole, rather than outright performance as many hatches today can do the numbers!

two examples I can remember recently-

- driving my friends gallardo for the weekend. ' don't do it' I was told 'it'll make your nsx feel like a civic' but you know what? It didn't. It made a big noise and certainly had the performance, but I felt the steering artificial, the 4 wheel drive detracting from the experience and the ride quite hard, even for a sports car due to the mandatory huge wheels and low profile tyres. It was definitely faster, but strangely not definably so. Getting back in the nsx the car felt keener to respond, light footed and what ever the performance difference was more than made up for with the higher pitched more frenetic engine note. I was expecting to love the gallardo, for it to become my 'must have' car and a worthy replacement or step up from the nsx. But for all that is and for what you'd pay, it just isn't.

- I test drove a gtr. It felt massive and capable and very video game like. I drove roads considerably faster than ever before quite effortlessly, feeling at the time a great rush at doing so, but even on the next time through the same roads the excitement was replaced with a feeling more like, 'ah, so this is what this does'. Effective, but unemotive.
These are just two examples, there are many more!

What have you driven that has reinforced the nsx as a superlative drivers car, and what is the 'magic' in how one covers the ground in the right hands, I still can't put my finger on it!

But I do love it......

[Mistercorn]

Well, given that I have hardly driven an NSX yet I can't comment with any authority, but I can tell you what I am expecting. My daily driver at the moment is an E46 M3 convertible, which with a 3.2l 6 cylinder engine and revving to 8000rpm is similar to the NSX, but it has 340hp rather than the <300 of the NSX. The M3 is also heavier and nowhere near as stiff. I expect the NSX to be much more nimble and handle much better whilst also being faster and making a great sound. I also have a 2004 996 turbo running about 670hp. In a straight line this will obviously destroy the NSX, but I expect the NSX to feel as if it can be driven harder and to provide much more driver feedback without the 4wd.
I'll found out in a weeks time when I pick up my car.

I never push my cars to the limit on the road anyway, so I might never find out. I want an NSX for the looks, the sound, and the history of the car and the design. To me it is pretty much unique in those respects and if I had such a thing it would be a definite 'bucket list' car.

MC

[Dragonlady]

Another localish member, may have to have a mini meet and drive sometime.
hope the car is everything you expect.

cheers Ian

[Senninha]

Having recently put my NSX back on the road it felt reassuringly like an old friend that would always be there.

Over the past 8 yrs Ive covered around 36k miles and never once felt uncomfortable, bored, or as if its just a car .... dont know how they did it but Honda definately added 'something' when they signed off into production.

SL350 (R107); lovely, relaxed cruising car but would be used very differently but I get the attraction

Current Vanquish; so much torque it was obscene! Brakes to die for! But, the actual drive left no better impression than my daily C350 estate .... back in the 90's I drove a V8 Vantage and still remember the occasion and drama that car offered, and what a sound! The current one at £223k as specced, forgetable.

regards, Paul

[jamieburke]

Great stuff!

i find it interesting that eve when you own big power stuff the nsx's appeal remains, power really isn't everything then?

i remember my good friend taking me out in his r33 with 700+ to the wheels! absolutely brutal! This was a guy so into modifying he couldn't have an ek9 without putting a turbo on it. He once told me if someone came to him with a standard car he'd feel sorry for them! Now that he has the big power skyline, when we talk the idea of supercharging the nsx he relies 'don't touch it' !

i often drive my car and it feels neither old, dated nor slow, which many of its 'stats' might suggest that it would!

I guess you you either get the 'magic' or you don't!

incidentally, read ages ago of a few guys on here doing turbo builds anyone heard any more about that? Seemed very interesting.

jamie

[Senninha]

Jamie,

there's about half a dozen SC cars, all NA1's I believe, and a couple Turbos, the Black one at Japfest and Amo is slowing building a 600hp monster

not sure if any more, but of course there a number of more subtle mods mainly exhaust, headers and intake in various forms/mixes

regards, Paul

[Pride]

Having been lucky enough to have driven many different supercars and sports cars on the road over the last 20 years there is one abiding memory which stands out as to why I will probably never part with my beloved NA1 and that is the time when I travelled up to Hinckley in 2000 to test drive the Ultima GTR with a view to part exchange it.
After driving nearly 200 miles to get there in my NSX and still feeling totally fresh and unfatigued I was then taken out for the most brutal back breaking and gut wrenching 10 mile road test of my life on the local A & B roads by the founder of the Ultima car company himself. We swapped seats to drive back and it was at this point I totally realised what the Honda NSX design philosophy and intentions were all about. Although the outright performance and mind numbing sound of the GTR itself grabbed you by the balls it also completely wears you out both physically and mentally in no time at all while never at any time feeling totally at one with this over power steered monster of a car and after a couple of hours having the factory tour and sales pitch I couldn't wait to get back into what I call my gazelle and enjoy a fantastic spirited drive home. No other car I've ever driven has given me the comfort, compliance and handling qualities of my 92 NSX and after 16 years of ownership it still brings a smile to my face and excites me just looking at it let alone driving it.
We'll done Honda!

[AR]

I have driven many things, but I am a fan of the FR platform. The last thing being an SLS AMG and I must say that it was AMAZING. No comparison my friends. Brakes were superb, power out of this world and fit and finish, second to none!

[Silver Surfer]

Jamie,

there's about half a dozen SC cars, all NA1's I believe, .....
regards, Paul

Who are the other 3 SC NSX owners bar me and Gary?......

SS

[Nick Graves]

The only modern I've driven that is a close to the NSX is the Evora.

I prefer the Honda, as the Toyota engine is a little bland & the overall feel a little 'kit car' but it's still a lovely, characterful device.

I'd probably prefer the 'Mini-NSX' new S2000 to the full-on new NSX, as I feel the latter may suffer from overkill for our roads. Have to find out in a couple of years...

[jamieburke]

Pride-
thats interesting as I had considered the exact same thing! Go for the 'ultimate' super car performance wise as an nsx alternative.
Can you tell me some more about how it was to drive? It certainly gets good reviews.

Regards
jamie

[Pride]

Hi Jamie, from memory and I've got to say it's not the great at the best of times the most difficult thing to master both safely and comfortably when gunning it up an A or B road in a Ultimate GTR is getting used to the GT gear shift mounted on the drivers inside sill, it never felt right in the short time I drove the beast but no doubt after some considerable practice I'm sure you would get used to it but for me it was just too alien.
Also the cabin/cockpit trim back then was very basic, industrial grade cord carpet glued down, cheap toggle switches and in affective air con and yes I realise it's a kit car but when you step out of the NSX and into one of these you just instantly think the road is your race track and I for one know I wouldn't keep my license for long so it was definatly a no go.
Having said that every time I see one and I saw 3 drive past at super car siege yesterday makes me hanker for that gorgeous shape and mind blowing performance but not on an every day basis so if I'm not getting too old now to get in and out over that huge sill, who knows?
Never say never.
Go and test drive one mate you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

[Tokyo-Joe]

I have both my NA1 and my F360 at the moment so I am in a fortunate position to enjoy both. The F360 feels like an evolution of the NSX in many ways, quality, interior, looks and performance are all up, however driving position, visibility and sure-footedness (is that even a word?) are down compared to the NSX. I maintain the 280hp NSX is perfect for UK roads with the short gears, you can have fun without losing the license. The F360 feels borderline scary in comparison, the speed to 100 is ridiculous. Either way both are great cars.

[Papalazarou]

I have both my NA1 and my F360 at the moment so I am in a fortunate position to enjoy both. The F360 feels like an evolution of the NSX in many ways, quality, interior, looks and performance are all up, however driving position, visibility and sure-footedness (is that even a word?) are down compared to the NSX. I maintain the 280hp NSX is perfect for UK roads with the short gears, you can have fun without losing the license. The F360 feels borderline scary in comparison, the speed to 100 is ridiculous. Either way both are great cars.

Sure the performance is improved, but quality? Ferrari's are a lot of things, but IMO a way behind the NSX until the 430.

Cheers.

[ChrisR]

Sure the performance is improved, but quality? Ferrari's are a lot of things, but IMO a way behind the NSX until the 430.

Cheers.

I agree

I had a manual F430 many years after foolishly selling my '05 NSX and it felt remarkably similar in many ways....

Chris.

[Tokyo-Joe]

Sure the performance is improved, but quality? Ferrari's are a lot of things, but IMO a way behind the NSX until the 430.

Yep I would stand by the statement, the interior is such a lovely place to be; plush leather dashboard, doorcards, pillars and roof lining all matching with hand stitched leather is very nice. The panels feel lovely and light, the engine bay is a work of art. For reliability i'll find out long term but jumping from one into another it is a fabulous place to be.

Please appreciate that I am not belittling the NSX, I have lusted after a 360 for years so it is obvious I would fall in love with it when I first bought it. Don't tell my fiance but if business goes well in the future I would like to add a NA1 NSX-R to my collection :)

[Papalazarou]

Yep I would stand by the statement, the interior is such a lovely place to be; plush leather dashboard, doorcards, pillars and roof lining all matching with hand stitched leather is very nice. The panels feel lovely and light, the engine bay is a work of art. For reliability i'll find out long term but jumping from one into another it is a fabulous place to be.

Please appreciate that I am not belittling the NSX, I have lusted after a 360 for years so it is obvious I would fall in love with it when I first bought it. Don't tell my fiance but if business goes well in the future I would like to add a NA1 NSX-R to my collection :)

I agree the 360 does have a nice looking interior. The point I was trying to make is that IMO build quality although better that the 348/355 is still not on par with the NSX.

[flyingsniffer]

RX7 - awesome acceleration, crazy bong where the red line should be, fuel (and oil) consumption from hell
Ford GT - jaw dropping performance in a straight line, bit you very hard if you got it wrong, steering wheel on the wrong side, too wide, stupid doors
Aston Martin Vantage Roadster - great noise, good performance, looked awesome, handling a little vague, sportshift gearbox awful

Why the NSX? Not too much investment, plenty of speed for UK roads, rarity, Japanese engineering, can work on it myself, nice owners ;-)

[NSX 2000]

Why the NSX? Not too much investment, plenty of speed for UK roads, rarity, Japanese engineering, can work on it myself, nice owners ;-)

"Nice owners" Are you sure! I've met you! ;)

[jamieburke]

Great responses!

ive thought of the 360 before but didn't feel it was a significant enough step up in enough areas to justify the outlay and maintenence costs.

re- the nsx being well suited to our roads- very true and often overlooked fact here I think. It rarely leaves me wanting for anything, although the idea of a little more power is always tempting to have....but need? Possibly not!

i haven't driven many cars that are as sensitive to chassis, wheel and tyre combinations. I have been amazed at how it has gone from driving like a complete pig to completely sublime with simple changes!

regards
jamie

[flyingsniffer]

"Nice owners" Are you sure! I've met you! ;)

Apart from those owners who support Harlequins, obviously.

Good luck to your boys in the warm up event in Cardiff tomorrow night. I will be there the day after ;-)

[Papalazarou]

I drove a GTR the other day. I'd avoided a test drive for years because I thought it might be 'the car.' Unfortunately I'd had a ride in a 950 hp corvette a few days earlier and the litre bike pace of that car and my inability to process the speed left me feeling like the Nissan needed more power, and was not the rocket ship I expected. This isn't to say the GTR isn't exceptional. The way it puts down it's 550 hp is incredible. It just felt a little big and my impression was it needed a race track or some big open roads to properly stretch it's legs.
Certainly where I live; tight twisty moor roads, it's probably too much car. On these roads, a smaller nimble low slung car will always feel more connected. So really shouldn't be compared to the Nissan.

Cheers.

[jamieburke]

Unfortunately I'd had a ride in a 950 hp corvette a few days earlier and the litre bike pace of that car and my inability to process the speed left me feeling like the Nissan needed more power, and was not the rocket ship I expected.

Gtr made to feel slow- priceless! What were the specs on the corvette? I've always liked the zo6.
and HOW did it get traction?!

regards
Jamie

[Papalazarou]

Gtr made to feel slow- priceless! What were the specs on the corvette? I've always liked the zo6.
and HOW did it get traction?!

regards
Jamie

The vette was supercharged with some head work I think and different gearing. Full throttle at any angle but straight pushed it out of line very quickly.
I imagine that despite power difference, the GTR would still be faster up to around 100mph. Largely because of traction issues. Above that I would expect the corvette to be a fair bit faster.

[jamieburke]

The vette was supercharged with some head work I think and different gearing. Full throttle at any angle but straight pushed it out of line very quickly.
I imagine that despite power difference, the GTR would still be faster up to around 100mph. Largely because of traction issues. Above that I would expect the corvette to be a fair bit faster.

Great stuff! Do you ever feel the need for more power in the nsx? I often wonder but I've had that with all the Hondas I've owned, the way they reach for the revs, working every last inch out of it...always had me thinking ' if it just had a bit more' I even did it by putting a Jackson charger on an integra type r, it was faster bit oddly, not as good for some reason, which always puts me off doing similar to the nsx!
I wish there were a few tuned examples around here that I could experience.

[Papalazarou]

Great stuff! Do you ever feel the need for more power in the nsx? I often wonder but I've had that with all the Hondas I've owned, the way they reach for the revs, working every last inch out of it...always had me thinking ' if it just had a bit more' I even did it by putting a Jackson charger on an integra type r, it was faster bit oddly, not as good for some reason, which always puts me off doing similar to the nsx!
I wish there were a few tuned examples around here that I could experience.

Certainly where I live, the NSX has about the right amount of power. In that you can use all of it and appreciate what is happening at the same time. Rather than frantically chasing gears and braking zones.
The low slung cockpit, engine sound, higher revving character and general dynamics means extra power, although preferable, isn't at the top of my list.
For instance, there is a straight near where I live and as it is normally deserted, it's a great opportunity to rev the car out through a few gears. In a GTR you'd be at warp speed. Whereas the NSX give you time to enjoy the noise, relative power and the speed. Often less is more.
I've only been in one SC NSX, but spoken to a few owners. The extra torque sounds great, but it appears that although something is gained, something is also lost. Perhaps some SC owners could comment.

Cheers.

[Ewan]

Certainly where I live; tight twisty moor roads, it's probably too much car. On these roads, a smaller nimble low slung car will always feel more connected. So really shouldn't be compared to the Nissan.

Sounds like you should try a Lotus then :) Supercharged Elise with a big brake kit would possibly be ideal...

:)

[Papalazarou]

Sounds like you should try a Lotus then :) Supercharged Elise with a big brake kit would possibly be ideal...

:)

I think as a 10/10ths car the Lotus is probably great for those kind of roads. But it's nice to have a little more refinement the rest of the time. I've driven a couple of Loti; an Elise and a 220 Exige. They are definitely experience cars. I'd love to drive one over the moors to see how it compares to the Honda.
I imagine it would feel lighter and sharper. But I wonder how it would cope on bumpier roads? On these roads the NSX's well judged compliant suspension works really well. Certainly those kind of roads made a fool out of the 997S I used to own.
All that rear biased weight and tyre just made it feel like I was dragging an anchor around.

Cheers.

[nsx60]

Another localish member, may have to have a mini meet and drive sometime.
hope the car is everything you expect.

cheers Ian


Like the idea of a mini meet , pretty sure there are a couple more in the North Notts / Sheffield area.

[Mistercorn]

I'm in Nottm. I live in West Bridgford and work in Eastwood.

MC

[Senninha]

Elise S2 with factory 135 upgrade ... Pure Lotus ... Light, planted, driver controlled ... A stripped out NSX without the harshness of the Exige or type R ...

[Ewan]

Like your thinking Paul :)

I spoke to a guy last weekend who had not long switched to a supercharged Elise S3 (or S2.5) and he said the fit & finish was a world apart from his previous Lotii, even after 20k miles. It wouldn't be as comfortable over a distance and wouldn't have the storage space that's 2nd nature to an NSX, but it could be just the thing for an early morning blast.

If there was ever an NSX meet again in the Thames Valley, give me a shout and I'll bring the Europa along and let you have a try - it's a hoot. Mid-engine RWD, 225bhp via turbo but <1000kgs weight, big AP Racing brakes and relatively fat Yoko AD08Rs means in the right conditions it can grip and stop rather well :D

[L696ULO]

Certainly where I live, the NSX has about the right amount of power. In that you can use all of it and appreciate what is happening at the same time. Rather than frantically chasing gears and braking zones.
The low slung cockpit, engine sound, higher revving character and general dynamics means extra power, although preferable, isn't at the top of my list.
For instance, there is a straight near where I live and as it is normally deserted, it's a great opportunity to rev the car out through a few gears. In a GTR you'd be at warp speed. Whereas the NSX give you time to enjoy the noise, relative power and the speed. Often less is more.
I've only been in one SC NSX, but spoken to a few owners. The extra torque sounds great, but it appears that although something is gained, something is also lost. Perhaps some SC owners could comment.

Cheers.

Judging from the journey to and from Japfest the answer is fuel consumption as I got there and back on one tank but Kare on the other hand.............

[Tokyo-Joe]

As with the above I would be happy to bring the 360 to an NSX meet if you guys would like to have a poke around it.

[robho]

An enjoyable thread....here are my experiences

I have owned my NSX for nearly ten years and, to be honest, bought it without realising how special it is. I retired early and combined the sale of my XJR/M3/328GTS into one car - a nearly-new 996 convertible.

I had owned the 328 for 16 yrs. I sold my house to buy it. I covered a substantial mileage - particularly on EU tours and absolutely loved every minute - only to find it was virtually unsaleable versus cars of the same age but (ridiculously) with only 1k or 2k miles.

I hated the ride of the 996. Having grown up with early Elans, I had grown to love compliant, well-controlled suspension - but the 996 had a dreadful ride on country B' roads, where the 328 excelled.

Cue the NSX.

Whilst owning it, I enjoyed several of Maranello's finest - a 246 Dino, a 550 Maranello, a 550 Barchetta, and an F430; and to give an extra dimension, one of the last 993s.

All of these were wonderful and enchanting.

However, none had the unique mix of qualities which makes the NSX so special.

Others have explained it very well.

For me, it is summed up in the word "engaging" - a combination of driving dynamics, wonderful ride, sound track, superlative driving position, quality of manufacture, subtlety of image, being different, and a reasonable dose of practicality - plus ALWAYS giving a sense of great occasion.

It's power-to-weight ratio works in the real world and I can attest to it's dynamic capabilities flattering the driver to outperform more powerful "exotica".

The F430 was my last Ferrari - bought to celebrate the loss of a great friend. It was truly impressive.

On my judgement day, I drove the 993, F430, and NSX back-to-back over the same piece of demanding road. For me the NSX was the clear winner. And the others were sold.

The Caterham CSR which replaced the F430 is another special car. If a little less practical......

Rob

[goldnsx]

I've only been in one SC NSX, but spoken to a few owners. The extra torque sounds great, but it appears that although something is gained, something is also lost. Perhaps some SC owners could comment.
SC: only gains but no lost at all (except in the wallet). The extra power is needed to keep all the kids in their GTIs, OPCs, Boxters and Cayman behind you.
Beside an NSX I'd rather buy a Caterham Seven than a Lotus Elise/Evora. But a Seven asks for a lot of compromises, so it certainly won't be driven as much as the NSX. On the other end a MP4-C would be the one to replace the NSX but maintainance costs and depreciation (allready 50%) are unknown and why a difforce after 12+ years. The NSX still feels like a great modern car.

[soddy]

it's very interesting reading your driving experiences of other cars against driving the nsx.
are the auto's just as appealing, or where you all describing manuals?

some of the ferrari's you have mentioned i'd never get a chance to drive, but hopefully one day i'll get a spin in an nsx to experience what you are all describing.

one question i'd like to ask, if you all woke up tomorrow and your nsx 'disappeared' what would you buy to replace the nsx that would be as good as it?

[AR]

RX7 - awesome acceleration, crazy bong where the red line should be, fuel (and oil) consumption from hell


Forgaot about those, was lucky enough to have three of those and they are comparable to the NSX in handling, I'll go as far as to say more predictable and the acceleration is on par and once modified...

[flyingsniffer]

I guess it's horses for courses: personally I found mine to be rather soul-less and lacking any discernible character.

However the engine was the smoothest thing I have ever driven. So unlike anything else.

And in a funny quirk of fate, I bought my RX7 from Keith Sutton, the prodigious F1 photographer and friend of Ayrton Senna. I believe he handled some of AS's PR too.

[Papalazarou]

SC: only gains but no lost at all (except in the wallet). The extra power is needed to keep all the kids in their GTIs, OPCs, Boxters and Cayman behind you.
Beside an NSX I'd rather buy a Caterham Seven than a Lotus Elise/Evora. But a Seven asks for a lot of compromises, so it certainly won't be driven as much as the NSX. On the other end a MP4-C would be the one to replace the NSX but maintainance costs and depreciation (allready 50%) are unknown and why a difforce after 12+ years. The NSX still feels like a great modern car.

Don't you lose the induction noise and the engine character?

Cheers.

[goldnsx]

Don't you lose the induction noise and the engine character?

Cheers.
I don't miss the induction noise or VTEC-noise, well, that's maybe subjective. The sweet whine of the SC compensates for them. The engine character is like stock, just with more power. No turbo lag (I'd never go turbo like a lot of US guys do, the character of the NSX would be destroyed). A racing driver may find a slight difference but the average sportscar driver does not. Out of boost the engine drives like stock, boost is easy controllable with the throttle. You can drive a weekend without hitting boost at all. But it's good to know the engine is packed with these 'kobolds' if you really need to let it fly. I would really miss the SC. Expensive project though...

[Papalazarou]

I don't miss the induction noise or VTEC-noise, well, that's maybe subjective. The sweet whine of the SC compensates for them. The engine character is like stock, just with more power. No turbo lag (I'd never go turbo like a lot of US guys do, the character of the NSX would be destroyed). A racing driver may find a slight difference but the average sportscar driver does not. Out of boost the engine drives like stock, boost is easy controllable with the throttle. You can drive a weekend without hitting boost at all. But it's good to know the engine is packed with these 'kobolds' if you really need to let it fly. I would really miss the SC. Expensive project though...

I guess perhaps the induction noise is a reasonable trade off for the extra power. I just really like the way the NA engine sounds. So am I right in saying that the SC amplifies the original power band, or does it make the power delivery more linear?

Cheers.

[soddy]

Forgaot about those, was lucky enough to have three of those and they are comparable to the NSX in handling, I'll go as far as to say more predictable and the acceleration is on par and once modified...

the rx7 fd twin turbo's were great. alot of my mates have them, rotary engines are super smooth and love to be revved hard. i have over 100,000 miles on my rx8 and i still rev the engine up to 9000 rpm in 2nd gear then the beep sounds to change gear. mpg goes up as a bonus :) they can be hard on the oil when being used like they should, but premixing helps out there as they are designed to use oil. but that is interesting about the handling of them and an nsx.

[Senninha]

one question i'd like to ask, if you all woke up tomorrow and your nsx 'disappeared' what would you buy to replace the nsx that would be as good as it?

if I had the money, 12C cabriolet, if I didn't I'd happily take another NA2, maybe the Silverstone or Black facelift model. ....

[Silver Surfer]

I guess perhaps the induction noise is a reasonable trade off for the extra power. I just really like the way the NA engine sounds. So am I right in saying that the SC amplifies the original power band, or does it make the power delivery more linear?

Cheers.

The power is linear...there is much less distinctive VTEC kick that I can notice compare to the NA car.....maybe because the power and torque has increased throughout the range.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/proracerimports/Scan_20100317173023.jpg
SS

[goldnsx]

The power is linear...there is much less distinctive VTEC kick that I can notice compare to the NA car.....maybe because the power and torque has increased throughout the range.

SS
Agreed, the power curve is similar to stock. I guess you have the same version as I have: the latest Lysholm.

The VTEC noise is not pronounced that much as there is more noise overall due to the increased power (and the 'sexy' charger whine). In the NSX, VTEC only prevents the torque from falling down with rpm. More noise but not exceptional more torque (unlike S2000 or Integra which are both 'lame' below VTEC). Actually where the stock engine looses slowly torque above 7k rpm the SC pulls steadily up to 8k rpm which feels 'sporty'.
One 'drawback' it might has is that you don't have to squeeze the rpms out every time as the SC offers enough torque in midrange that you can use the 3rd gear instead of always the 2nd. Oh and one drawback for sure: tire wear but I'm not driving like an id... so they last around 10% less than before.

As to the title of this thread: A SC NA1 NSX with some extensive tuning (wheels, suspension, brakes, gearbox ratios) is a completly different animal than a bone stock NA1 (even maybe a NA2). But I admire completely stock NSXs very high but would use them for weekend cruising only but that's just me. :)